Curse

pygar · Jan 05, 2008, 02:34 AM // 02:34

The lower level and casual gamer economy is the part that needs the most help.

For the newer or more casual players in the game right now, they need to make keys and lockpicks a more frequent drop. The best way to get anything out of the lower level grinds is out of the chests, and keys and lockpicks cost too much in the shops to make the investment worth it.....If you pay the shop price for keys and are at all unlucky with the chest you'l only get merch fodder that is worth 200-300 gold, which hurts much after spending 500-1.5K for a key or pick.....picking chests even if the loot isnt the greatest is the best thing for low level treasure because heroes and henchies cant steal those drops.(they steal all other drops, and thats devastating for new players, because you have to outfit those guys with nice stuff too, even tho they pick up and reduce your grind treasure) The lockpick drops during the EOTN promo kicked ass, they need to implement something like that (maybe not quite as often) in everyday play, not just for a promo like that......really just seeing EOTN for 2 hours was an instant sell for me, I went and grabbed the platinum edit. that nite.....then I got to reap the beni's of those lockpick drops for the whole time period of the promo, I got more good treasure in that week than the whole time i'd been playing the game prior- it was a stark contrast when the promo ended and everything went back to normal, normal being getting so little gold out of grinding that making and trying to sell perfect salvage kits for 1.5K almost sounds like fun.

I really like what they have to offer in the skill and pvp unlock packs and man I wish every day with every fiber of my being that I would have been able to get my hands on the BMP. (I have only been playing the game for about two months, I started right after the promo window closed-and I totally hate that the BMP is something you cant just buy online from them) If you are willing to spend the money, these kind of online bought "boosts" to your game could help the new player immensely to get good at the game faster, and not become mired down in grinding for treasure so they can "get over the hump" trying to equip themselves with the better skills and weapons in the game......even tho the "prime" level of your char. caps at 20, just getting to level 20 is a long ways away from being ready to get serious about pvp or the more difficult areas of the GW world.

Zonzai · Jan 05, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

sigh doesnt seem the causal player (even though some of us have been here for more than 2 years) fits into the above list from strat_53711.

I feel the same way. I pre-ordered the original GW (now called Prophecies). But I don't farm much and I don't want to support people that sell stuff for real world goods.

I have actually made in-game purchases online before, for this game and other games. However, in my blissful ignorance I really had no idea that they basically hire slave-labor to farm that stuff. (Even though buying Nike products is even worse, but that's beside the point.) Or that supporting such things actually ruined game economies. Which, is probably the real issue for Arena.Net.

Since then, I've found out that farming myself isn't actually all that bad if you do the research first. Go to pvx wiki, find a build for something easy, sell it on guru and buy what you actually want. It's actually not all that time consuming once you find something that you can farm a bit. And if you're like me, you don't have that much time to spare.

And aside from that, beat the game and you get really good items anyway (stat wise). Getting the money together for 15k armor isn't that bad either, if you are frugal and even slightly patient. The only thing you really give up by not buying from bots is unique weapon skins and obsidian armor. It's a small price to pay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pygar

The lower level and casual gamer economy is the part that needs the most help.

I have to agree with you completely. I know at least four people who have quit the game, even though they are avid MMO players, because they didn't like how difficult it was to get decent gear for their characters (or at least what the think is decent, which is probably at least above average).

The thing that upsets me the most is I gave away a lot of good stuff to them to try to get them to stay. And they quit over not having enough money to buy keys and kits, because they spent all their money on armor? Ouch!

I think a lot of the problem is that, because there isn't all that much character development, and what there is requires money (skills and gear), your average MMO player just can't adjust to the slow pace of character development.

Fortunately, I think that Arena.net has realized all of this and is attempting to fix the problem with GW2 (they're actually quick to see problems even though they are not always quick to fix them). With the news that there will be additional races, I expect character development in other areas will improve as well.

Hopefully, what will happen in GW 2 is there will be many levels and each level you will earn points to unlock skills and the attribute cap will remain (though at what numbers I don't know). If they did that (or something similar) both the character development and economy would benefit.

Biostem · Jan 05, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

There's a major problem w/ the economies in MMOs; let's say a game allowed RMTs. Now, let's say a particular item is very rare and sells for a lot of money. Well guess what - a dev can go in and give himself a few of these "uber-rare" items and cha-ching he's rolling in real money. The supply is artificially controlled, and is as limited or limitless as the devs want it to be. There is no assurance that an item will or will not continue to be rare, and there is no finite amount of said item.

It all comes down to what people want to spend; there is no "need" for any virtual items/real estate, and as such, anything spent for such items is disposable income.

Just because people make a big deal about such things does not increase their legitimacy. The only issue I can think of is if someone took money for a virtual item, and failed to deliver it, or one side says they did deliver it and the other did not. In that case, it would come down to what sort of agreement was made, (like getting a court order for chat logs, etc).

Anyway, I simply think of virtual items/real estate transactions as payments for a service - you are paying for the time and efforts of the other person to obtain the virtual items, not the items themselves...

Zonzai · Jan 05, 2008, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Biostem,

I highly doubt that any dev would be dumb enough to risk their well paying job at Arena.Net and future employment opportunities in the gaming industry over a few bucks by giving themselves items and selling them online. Really, I think that's a highly unlikely situation.

And if you really want to get technical. Anything that you "own" in GW is actually property of Arena.Net. And, you can't sell something that doesn't belong to you. That's called stealing, kiddies.

Anyway, I've said my piece on the issue and I will say no more on buying/selling online as the argument is truly moot when most people are still buying products made in sweatshops by the tons (*ahem* Wal-Mart).

Just for fun: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50883

Mac Sidewinder · Jan 05, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonzai

Biostem,

Anyway, I've said my piece on the issue and I will say no more on buying/selling online as the argument is truly moot when most people are still buying products made in sweatshops by the tons (*ahem* Wal-Mart).

Statements like this make me chuckle. Some people scream about this problem all the time but they would be very suprised if they actually took the time to look up everything they bought to see where it came from and how it was made. Very few countries have laws to prevent the exploitation of children and women. Now I'm not condoning it but if you boycotted every one of them then you probably wouldn't be spending much of your money at all.

As far as the in-game economy goes; GW does a good job of giving you as much as you NEED as you progress through the storyline to get the job done. Of course this if providing that you don't waste your money on "blings" along the way. If you want those "blings" then you have to be willing to spend the time (and find a manner that works) to obtain them; via farming, trading, etc.

As in all online economys it all comes down to you spending your non-existant money on non-existant pixels. The only REAL thing you spend is your time in game, and some of us spend way too much of that. So on that note, simply play the game and enjoy it. Don't worry about that next "bling", but if it happens to come your way then enjoy it all the more.

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2008, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Very interested answers (though as some said early, there's a limited number of things we can say about the GW economy), I'll just pick a few for the moment and will come back to the rest. Plus we haven't touched a lot on comparing the virtual economies yet (is it actually such a bad thing that GW economy is so limited?) and the interest or real-world economists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pygar

The lockpick drops during the EOTN promo kicked ass, they need to implement something like that (maybe not quite as often) in everyday play, not just for a promo like that......really just seeing EOTN for 2 hours was an instant sell for me, I went and grabbed the platinum edit. that nite.....then I got to reap the beni's of those lockpick drops for the whole time period of the promo, I got more good treasure in that week than the whole time i'd been playing the game prior- it was a stark contrast when the promo ended and everything went back to normal, normal being getting so little gold out of grinding that making and trying to sell perfect salvage kits for 1.5K almost sounds like fun.

I didn't attend EotN launch event, but if this is so, this is strange. It asks the question of whether Anet has been influencing the economy. They obviously do whenever they introduce new minipets (no in-game advantage but it's very much like in real-life and sometimes people want things they don't need) or the Zaischen chests. Do people feel that Anet should have controlled the economy more? Or better managed the introduction of new elements?

(I remember the thread discussing the fact that GW's economy was socialist, or even communist

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonzai

I highly doubt that any dev would be dumb enough to risk their well paying job at Arena.Net and future employment opportunities in the gaming industry over a few bucks by giving themselves items and selling them online. Really, I think that's a highly unlikely situation.

Completely agree here. Anet wouldn't last a few months is this were to happen. Plus the Anet founders were smart and made sure that the game design would make this very difficult to do (and very easy to spot), as recently said by Gaile.

(I've read that accusations of collusion of Anet and gold-sellers via the bugs and duping events and though the fact that RMT could indeed be a good source of new accounts and income for Anet, I never could believe the stories that this "ex-employee of Anet" said)

Quote:

Just for fun: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50883

Actually one of the article I originally quoted mentions something similar:
http://www.mmobux.com/articles/746/i...rmers-in-china

Quote:

It is true and what the news says are far from what I actually experienced. These sweat shop are very poorly managed in terms of hygiene, quality of living or food. The farmers meals are basically 1-2 RMB (0.12-0.0.2 USD) each. These meals are made out of the garbage collected from various dinning places in the city and re-cooked. Some materials might not even be a overnight but actually days or weeks old.

pygar · Jan 05, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder

As far as the in-game economy goes; GW does a good job of giving you as much as you NEED as you progress through the storyline to get the job done. Of course this if providing that you don't waste your money on "blings" along the way. If you want those "blings" then you have to be willing to spend the time (and find a manner that works) to obtain them; via farming, trading, etc.

As in all online economys it all comes down to you spending your non-existant money on non-existant pixels. The only REAL thing you spend is your time in game, and some of us spend way too much of that. So on that note, simply play the game and enjoy it. Don't worry about that next "bling", but if it happens to come your way then enjoy it all the more.

I can see your points, but having "bling" is as much an essential part of character building as it is to get skills and weapons to make you tougher.....this is the crux of why so many people get so uptight about GW's in game economy (and some end up /ragequitting over it). I have just ended up dedicating the extra time to make some attempt at both bling and brawn myself, and am very much on the edge of being on the game too much..... an addiction level of dedication, and srsly kinda not good for me.

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2008, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by pygar

an addiction level of dedication, and srsly kinda not good for me.

Get the habit of taking a little break once in a while. You decide on a rythm of play that suits your lifestyle and wishes. You'll soon discover the added joy you can get.

pygar · Jan 05, 2008, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Get the habit of taking a little break once in a while. You decide on a rythm of play that suits your lifestyle and wishes. You'll soon discover the added joy you can get.

oh yeah, postin here has been my break lately

Good thread Fril

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2008, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pygar

oh yeah, postin here has been my break lately

Good thread Fril

It actually is not a real break as your head is still somewhat in the GW world. Take a real break away from GW, you can even play WoW :P. Unless it's snowing where you are, get out, walk/jump/swim/run, go meet friends, see a movie, read a book etc.

Thanks! (the will for writing this thread came from a comparison of GWG with other GW forums, where people were more positively contributing)

arcanemacabre · Jan 05, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

There is a one major difference (and several smaller ones) between an online game's economy and the real world's economy; it is known as the 'economic problem.' This refers to scarcity, or limited resources that can drive up the cost to produce, and therefore prices and demand for goods. In GW, like all other online games (that I know of), this scarcity is entirely simulated and manipulated by the developer's code, and thus the whole economy is at their mercy.

Socialism is a concept that does not pan out too well in the real world because of the economic problem. Everyone can't have everything because there isn't enough resources to satiate the public. Unfortunately, that also means it works amazingly well in an online game for the reason that the economic problem doesn't exist. But then that begs the question - is it fun? Can a game be fun if everyone has everything already?

Of course the answer is no. However, where are the limits? Do you make it so that only a truly elite few have 95% of everything, everyone else gets peanuts? That kind of system in a video game makes people want to cheat, because they can. If they can't get it the good ol' honest way, and there is an alternative (money trade), and they want it, they will do it.

Scarcity is something that needs to be delicately balanced and tended to at all times if it is going to exist in a video game. That is the really difficult part. I give props to Anet for doing as well as they did, even if they aren't perfect. There really are only two ways to remove botting and gold-selling: 1) remove any reason for people to buy gold, or 2) ban bots en masse. Option #2 is really the only option that wouldn't destroy the game.

maraxusofk · Jan 05, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

actually though, the world DOES have enough food to fully feed every mouth in the world. the only difference is that it costs too much to ship the food to places like africa to feed the children. in the end it comes down to economics, not resources.

arcanemacabre · Jan 05, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

actually though, the world DOES have enough food to fully feed every mouth in the world. the only difference is that it costs too much to ship the food to places like africa to feed the children. in the end it comes down to economics, not resources.

It does come down to resources. Resources come in many forms, including land, labor, and capital.

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

You're right on many points maraxusofk and I want to come back to your post a bit later, more in depth (GJ for an 18 year old

).

There's still one big difference with the real world as you pointed out, the resources. But these resources are not created in a random way, Anet's server program have precise algorithm when generating loot and even the quite efficient "randomness" factor (much discussed in various threads) does not change the fact that resources are created according to rules defined by Anet. It's infinite, but among a certain path decided by Anet, so economically I guess it's still sound to discuss the issue of the virtual economy. (it's like in real-life, we have limited supply but we discover more regularly isn't it?)

Thanks for your insightful contribution,

arcanemacabre · Jan 05, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

The issue about the devs (and code) being in control of scarcity can prove to be a big problem when something goes against the devs' intentions. By that, I mean exploits/bugs. As a side note on exploits, I don't mean just the severe ones like duping, I mean anything that makes use of otherwise poorly designed areas, such as a certain build designed to solo an area that is originally intended to be elite/high-end. If the build gets out, and it is easy enough anyone can use it, whatever high-end items in that area get the 'common' treatment.

This isn't a problem in the real world, since that downgrading treatment of goods balances out. There is no central controlling force that steps in and fixes said 'exploit' to make sure it doesn't balance out, and remains rare. Also, the real damage can come if that item (or items) have an unchangeable price (merchant value), such as keys or collector loot. Loot scaling did a fairly good job of decreasing the likelihood of that happening, though.

Angel Puriel · Jan 05, 2008, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Those that haven't played games like Final Fantasy XI, you have no clue how good Guild Wars has it, in terms of RMT being a problem. But to those that have experienced how devestating RMTs CAN be to a MMO if left unchecked for too long, you'd realize that RMT = EVIL.

Of course, game/economy design plays the biggest role in RMT's degree of "evilness." In my opinion, RMT is not an issue at all in Guild Wars, but I believe GW2 may be a new breeding ground for RMTs... IF ANet allows them to flourish (which I hope and believe won't happen).

pygar · Jan 05, 2008, 12:28 PM // 12:28

gonna re-iterate what i said earlier....Second Life has it perfect when it comes to in game economy...just let people buy what they want from the main company, there is no black market and everybody is happy.....it's all the companies that make stiff rules and then expect people to really follow them that suffer the "RMT problem".

also, they could just drop a smidge more treasure in in the non- HM areas and a lot of the economic stress in GW would lift.

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Puriel

Those that haven't played games like Final Fantasy XI, you have no clue how good Guild Wars has it, in terms of RMT being a problem. But to those that have experienced how devestating RMTs CAN be to a MMO if left unchecked for too long, you'd realize that RMT = EVIL.

I was just reading this:
http://uk.ps2.gamespy.com/playstatio.../843470p1.html

pygar: the problem with this kind of economy is that it can't realistically apply to a game, where players have more inventives to "cheat" because it's less involved in everyday life (virtual communities in 2L tend to be close to real ones).

October Jade · Jan 05, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

This thread makes me grin.

As an actual economist (yep, graduate school and everything), I think about these issues frequently. I've posted on the matter innumerable times in the past; sadly, the message gets lost upon people who don't really understand it.

As for previous comments in this thread, some of you are spot on in your analysis. Others clearly don't have a clue what the hell they are talking about. I'll refrain from naming names; feel free to pm me if you'd like any assistance in separating legitimate theory from nonsense.

Above all, keep the discussion going. Economics, as a field of study, is very bottom-heavy. Mastering well a small handful of key concepts will go a long way in explaining why the world behaves as it does.

Fril Estelin · Jan 06, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

October Jade: why don't you explain to us the right and wrong theories?